As our conversation with Scott McCaughey continues, we turn to R.E.M., Collapse Into Now, vegetarianism and why R.E.M. is more environmentally-conscious than U2 or Sting. I’m pleased to present the second half of the Spectrum Culture interview with Scott McCaughey.
Before we talk about Collapse Into Now, what pre-Scott McCaughey R.E.M. song is out there that you wish you had played on?
Hmmm… “Camera.” I love that song. Not that I was needed on it by any means. It’s a really fantastic song that we actually played three times since I’ve been in the band mainly by Ken Stringfellow’s and my urging. We got it in there a few times. It’s not going to happen often but it’s a song I really love. They said that they hardly ever played it all, but they played it the first time I saw them in Seattle in 1984. Around the time of Fables of the Reconstruction.
Yeah, they have a nice new box set of that album out.
The demos disc? Yeah, it’s really cool. Peter was happy when they discovered that because they had all forgotten about it. They had just gone in one day and thrown down every song they had at John Keane’s studio. The tape resurfaced and Peter said he liked a lot of it better than the record.
Well, they cite that one as a difficult record.
Yeah, I’ve heard stories. They were in England. The studio was freezing, they had no money, they living in a shitty apartment and taking public transport to the studio every day. They had just come off a solid year of touring and hadn’t had time to work on new material. And yet, it’s a great album (laughs).
You come from the indie side of things. The Rolling Stones are more a corporation than a band these days and R.E.M. is definitely a business. What are the big differences for you as a guitarist playing for a band as big as R.E.M.? I’m sure you’re used to it now because it’s been almost 20 years.
Well, getting paid was kind of interesting. That was innovative (laughs).
Are you talking about the amount?
Well, yeah but also actually knowing you were getting paid. Every band I had ever been in before, at the end of the tour you hoped you’d come out in the black. In R.E.M. obviously I knew I was getting paid and very generously and it was awesome. But it is also so much less responsibility. I have the responsibility to learn the songs and try to play well every night, which I would do no matter what because it’s a sacred thing to me to go out and play a good show and try to have it always be different and fun and exciting every night. But beyond that everything was taken care of. It was like, “Show up in the lobby at 4 o’clock.” I can do that. That was basically the demands beyond playing a good show. That was all I had to worry about. Normally I would be used to calling the radio station to see what time we gotta be there. I have to drive the van. I gotta load the gear. Just do everything. Just do every single aspect of what you do as a band on tour and it’s non-stop 24 hours a day trying to keep the show on the road, as it were. With R.E.M., after the first time or two where I was really nervous because I was playing in front of a lot of people, it was like, “Oh man, this is so easy in a way” (laughs). You know? You got this machine and you’re just a little, tiny part of it and all you have to do is look under your door in the morning in your nice hotel room and there’s a sheet that says, “Be in the lobby at 4 o’clock.” That’s all you gotta do! (laughs)
The definition of selling out has changed so much. Back in the ’80s you were a “sell-out” if you went from an indie label to a major one. Now, it’s okay to put a song on a Volkswagen commercial because the times have changed and you can’t get your music out there any other way.
But R.E.M. has still never done that.
Right, but they also never had to.
Yeah, Peter and I have talked about it. He goes, “Man, if they want to put a Minus 5 song on a commercial, go ahead. Go for it because you need the money.” There were probably times early with R.E.M. where they might have wanted the money but they had already made a pact that they weren’t going to do that. And they stuck to it.
But that was also the mindset of the early ’80s.
For truth. Now, when Wilco did all those commercials, their position was it’s the best way to get your music out.
Exactly!
I totally understand that.
I’ve been up close to see both Michael Stipe and Bono perform. There is a definitely a performance aesthetic that is different when playing for a huge arena versus a more intimate show. Is that something you keep in mind when you play a large show?
I don’t think about it too much. The biggest difference for me between playing live for R.E.M. and playing with the Young Fresh Fellows or whoever isn’t the size of the crowd or the size of the stage, it’s that I’m a support musician instead of the guy who is singing a lot of the songs and talking in between songs. That’s the biggest difference for me. In R.E.M., I just play and I can rock out and have much fun as I want and I don’t have to worry about anything that happens in between songs or remember the lyrics or anything like that. I don’t think a whole lot about it in my other bands but that’s what I do in the other bands. I’m the guy who sings and yammers (laughs).
Yet this is the gig where you make the most money.
Yeah, definitely. There’s no doubt about it. I’m not saying it’s less pressure or more pressure or anything like that. It’s just that’s the difference. It’s like a different persona. You’re being a back-up guy as opposed to a guy who has to really relate to the crowd and keep things moving. Michael’s that guy with R.E.M. He’s the guy.
I wouldn’t want to be Michael Stipe.
That’s why they’re probably not touring on this record. He doesn’t really want to be that guy for six months.
I get the impression you are closer to Peter than anyone else in the band.
Yeah, but they are all good friends. But Peter and I hang out all the rest of the time too. I’m definitely good friends with Mike and Michael too.
I feel like Michael has risen to become a persona rather than a musician. He’s into photography and fashion. It’s an interesting dichotomy between him and Peter Buck, who is a consummate guitarist and doesn’t seem as interested in the trappings as much.
They came from different backgrounds. Mike and Peter were probably completely wrapped up in music as teenagers. Michael, I don’t think ever had that drive to be in a band like those guys did. They were all about being in a band, even in high school. Michael, I think, saw it more of it as a way to express yourself. He probably didn’t ever even think about being in a band until he heard Horses by Patti Smith and then he was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” She isn’t a typical “I want to be a dude in a rock band” kind of thing. That was what hit him and made him become really interested. The fact you can have a voice and put it into rock music.
She’s on Collapse Into Now on the last track.
That song (“Blue”) that she’s on for Collapse Into Now, I didn’t hear that it was an actual song until I heard the finished record. We just did that as a jam during the last couple of days we were recording in Berlin. Peter said, “Let’s just go and do something a little fucked out.” I literally played lead guitar through the entire song. That’s all I did. I just thought, “Well, nothing is going to happen with that. We put that on tape, we play it one time and then it’s gone. Maybe it will be on a box set 20 years from now.” Then I heard the record and Michael had done this thing over it and then they changed the middle and they had Patti come in and sing. I was like, “Wow! That’s actually really, really cool.” I did not think anything was going to come of that track at all. We did a lot of tracks where we worked really, really hard on them and had some really cool stuff that didn’t make it onto the record. That one was just like a fuck off thing we did. But it became a really amazing thing when Michael came up with the whole crazy rap he did on it and then Patti came in. I was blown by it.
Am I allowed to say I wasn’t a huge fan of it?
I think it’s a really good ending for the record. It’s the one song on the record, to me, that isn’t a single. Like every other song on the record could be a single. That one was a whole different thing.
When I reviewed Collapse Into Now I said, “It’s not the best of R.E.M., but the best of what R.E.M. can do.”
Right.
Like here’s a song with mandolin and here’s a rocker a la New Adventures in Hi-Fi. It’s a less cohesive record than lot of the other ones.
That’s good, though.
The song kind of felt like “Country Feedback Pt. 2″ to me.
That’s exactly what it was (laughs). It had even been said, but we said, “Let’s just go out there and do this ‘Country Feedback’ kind of thing.” I was thinking, “Why are we doing that?” But then, Patti and Michael took it to a different place that was cool. Still, it is reminiscent of “Country Feedback.” There’s no doubt about it. What makes the song so cool is the whole change in the middle where Patti comes in and the piano.
I certainly like it better than the song that closed the previous album, “I’m Gonna DJ.”
That’s so funny. We played that song forever before we recorded it. I thought it was a really cool song. Actually, I loved playing that song. It’s really, really fun.
I really like a lot of the songs on Collapse Into Now though. One of my favorites is “Überlin.”
I play on that track but it didn’t have any vocals when I left Berlin. Michael came up with the lyrics and the vocals when they were mixing the record in Nashville. So to me that was like, “Oh my God, this song is amazing.” It’s like I had never heard it.
Is it odd to do things piecemeal like that?
It is weird. But what you have to understand is most of that record is two guitars, bass and drums live and not that much overdubbed on it except for vocals. When we played the songs live, they felt like completed tracks except they didn’t have words or singing, which obviously is an important aspect of the song. But the song is virtually done when we played it live so it feels like a performance and a finished song.
It’s how Hi-Fi was recorded also, right?
Yeah, a lot of that stuff was done at soundcheck. Even on Accelerate and Collapse Into Now there were way less overdubs than there were on Hi-Fi. It’s interesting because you come up with this great track but then it has to inspire Michael to finish it.
So he’s not around when you guys are playing?
No, he’s totally there. Sometimes he will even be singing along and coming up with ideas. Occasionally there will be one where he finished the lyric to it and then we’ll go back and record it again with him singing just to get the feel of doing it all together. He’s always there and listening and working on lyrics. Some of them just take a long time. On “Überlin” I didn’t know he had any ideas for a lyric for it and then all of a sudden I got the record and I was like, “Wow! That’s the coolest song.”
His lyrical style has changed. Twenty years ago you wouldn’t have Michael Stipe singing about flying on a star.
You know what pisses me off? I’m just going to say this. People are always like, “His lyrics aren’t like they used to be back in the old days.” First of all, you couldn’t understand the lyrics on the first three or four records. Second of all, a lot of them were just him riffing along with the band.
Free verse?
Yeah. On “Second Guessing” he sings the same verse three times. Everyone is like, “Oh, that was so genius.” Well yeah, it was genius but you wouldn’t want him to do that now. If he did that now on a song, sang the same verse three times in a row, people would be like, “He can’t write lyrics anymore, like he did in the old days” (laughs).
I saw him once when he said he had to Google his own lyrics for a song. Well, sorry to piss you off.
No, no! It’s not you at all. People just always refer back to his lyrics on the early R.E.M. stuff and there’s some great lyrics there but they are a product of a different kind of songwriting. They would be playing at a soundcheck and he would sing the first thing that came to mind and they would have to record it. He didn’t have the luxury of saying, “We’re going to take six months to make this record.” Whatever those lyrics he sang, those were the lyrics to the song. Good things can happen with that. Now he really has the luxury to really work on the lyrics and get something that he is really happy with. I think his lyrics are great. They’re awesome.
Pitchfork said that “Walk it Back” is the best R.E.M. song in ages.
That’s good. A lot of people haven’t mentioned that song and I love it.
There seems to be a demarcation for some people who love R.E.M. between the Bill Berry era and the post-Bill Berry era. What are your favorite post-Bill Berry lyrics and why?
Of course, whenever you ask me anything like that, my mind goes blank. “Summer Turns to High” off of Reveal is a huge favorite. I really like “Beachball” off of that record. I love a lot of that record. I love Up too. I think that’s a fantastic record. I am trying to think of what my favorite songs are. “At My Most Beautiful” is the obvious one because it’s such a Beach Boys-like thing. “Walk Unafraid” is really cool.
That’s one you guys play live a lot.
We do and it’s turned into a completely different animal than what it was on the record. When we do that one live, especially when Ken Stringfellow is playing with us too, he and I would just go completely apeshit on keyboards. We would be trying to out-Cecil Taylor each other. I also love stuff like “Horse to Water” on Accelerate that’s really fucking noisy. I really love that one. On the new record, there are so many of my favorites songs we’ve done post-Bill. “Überlin” and “Walk it Back,” some of the really rocking songs on there. Even “Leaving New York” off of Around the Sun, that song seems like it should have been a huge hit.
That album gets a bad rap.
It totally gets a bad rap, but there are some good songs on it. There’s problems with it, but when we played those songs live they were really good. There’s a lot of great stuff on that record, actually.
I like “The Outsiders,” the one with Q-Tip.
Yeah, that song is actually really fun to play live.
I even like “The Worst Joke Ever” which everyone seems to hate.
(laughs) I like that song too! He played it twice ever live. That’s the thing with that record. It was great when we recorded it but it just got worked on for too long. It’s probably one of those records that in hindsight people are going to come around to and go, “You know, there’s some really cool stuff on this record.” It’s just the type of thing where you’re spinning your wheels a little bit. When you’re a really big band like R.E.M., you starting thinking, “We gotta take this to another level.” The last two records we made a really conscious effort not to do that. Most of Accelerate and Collapse Into Now, if you heard the basic tracks of two guitars, bass and drums recorded live, the songs just don’t sound that different. They are pretty much there as finished songs without the vocals.
I really like Accelerate but I also feel it’s similar to All That You Can’t Leave Behind where it’s like, “Uh oh, we’re experimenting but people aren’t excited. So it’s time to get back to basics.”
That was a conscious thing. I won’t deny it. That’s why I think, even though I love Accelerate and thought it was really cool, Collapse Into Now is a little better because it wasn’t trying to make that statement Accelerate was trying to make. It was like, “Let’s do the best songs we can do and that will be it.”
I really like that second track. The one where Michael says, “I just had to get that off my chest.”
Oh yeah, that’s my favorite song on the record and I always forget the title. (Sings a bit to himself). It’s “All the Best.” That’s possibly my favorite song R.E.M. has done since I’ve been in the band. I fucking love that song. It’s so powerful and the track is like a fucking sledgehammer. There’s no overdubs. Really, really great song. We demoed all the songs in Portland and then we went to New Orleans. That was one we hadn’t demoed and Peter just started playing this riff and we all started playing it. Michael was immediately like, “Yeah, let’s do that.”
One of my editors asked me this question and I’m going to put it to you: what’s the point of having Eddie Vedder on this album when you can’t really hear him?
(laughs) The funny thing is I think you can actually hear him pretty well on there because his voice cuts through and sticks out. When he came in to sing on the backing vocals of that song, me and Jacknife Lee and Bill Rieflin had been out singing backing vocals for that song. We tracked tons of them with five or six singing. Eddie only sang on the outro. So we had this big wall of vocals. Then he came in and was going to sing along with us. Michael’s whole idea of the song was that it should be like a party with people singing along. There’s no words or anything so anyone could just sing along. That song was inspired by Vic Chesnutt. We had already done these “oh oh oh” singing at the end and Eddie came. Michael just wanted him to be another voice that was part of the crowd at the end of that song. Eddie did a take and it was great. Then he said, “Can I do another one?” and it was great. It wasn’t like he was doing the same thing each time. He did like seven takes and they were all completely different. It would be amazing to hear those seven takes alone. To me, his voice is really featured. I don’t really hear all the other stuff. But I can pick out Eddie’s voice. I think Michael’s idea was for it to be like a jazz funeral. Like people going down the street, but singing instead of using horns. We actually had some crazy New Orleans horns on there but they didn’t use them on the record. But I hear Ed good on there (laughs).
Do you feel joining R.E.M. has unlocked a lot of doors for you?
I don’t know. I already played with Peter for awhile before I started playing with R.E.M. What’s tended to happen is that Peter and I play in a lot of bands together. We play in the Minus 5 together and Tuatara and Tired Pony. We play in Robyn Hitchcock and the Venus 3 together and we play in R.E.M. together. And the Baseball Project. We’re in six bands together, though one is more high profile than the others. Besides the fact that it’s been amazing for me to play those songs, be in that band with them and obviously be well-paid and all that stuff, it’s enabled me to be a professional musician for a lot longer than I might have been. Maybe at some point I would have had to give up and get a regular job.
Sounds like a godsend.
It’s a total godsend. And I’m not saying it only financially because I still I have to make a living. I’m not independently wealthy by any means. To me, it all seems like part of the process of being in bands and playing together. Peter is my friend and we like playing music. Luckily, he could be this total rock star – “Oh yeah, I’ve made a million dollars. I can just kick back whenever R.E.M. is not doing anything.” He’s not like that. He wants to go play. He wants to fucking get in the van and go tour with us and stay at Knights’ Inns in Scranton (laughs). I’m not saying he relishes the idea but he’s okay with it. That’s what he does. Mike Mills is going to go out with the Baseball Project in May and June because Peter can’t do it. Mike Mills is going to be staying in those $40 per night hotels.
I have a friend that knows Mike Mills. She’s making a documentary about Big Star. She also just interviewed Michael.
Mike is doing all those Big Star Third shows.
That album is really devastating to me.
That one is on my top 10 for sure, Big Star Third.
I like all of them.
That’s the thing. It’s hard to pick the best of the three, but desert island disc would be Big Star Third.
But the song that really rips me up though is “Thirteen.”
It’s amazing. I should play that at the Crystal Hotel. I’ve played that one before. That’s a good thought. We actually did “Holocaust” at a Minus 5 show when Stringfellow was playing with us. I think we opened with it and then went immediately into something else. It was crazy.
I feel like Jeff Tweedy owes his entire career to “September Gurls.”
I’m sure Jeff loves that whole record a lot. When we started the Minus 5, I said to everyone who came in to play, “The Fellows are great. I really love the Fellows. We rock out. But I write all of these sad, slow songs. I want the Minus 5 to be a psychedelic folk rock group and if we could be like any record that would come close to a template, it would be Big Star Third.” That was really the most inspirational record for what I wanted the Minus 5 to be. Then the Minus 5 became a band and played live and played rock songs and became a whole different thing. But the original intention was for it to be a fucked up, feedback-laden, Big Star Third kind of thing.
So I would like to wind down with some Portland questions. How long have you been living here?
Almost seven years. Which is insane.
What are you favorite places to eat?
I like La Bonita. I still have a regular breakfast thing there with John Moen from the Decemberists. We always try to eat there for breakfast as often as possible (laughs).
What do they have that’s so good?
Huevos Mexicanos, huevos rancheros. You can get anything you want. You can get burritos if you want. The green chile enchiladas are insane. What else do I love? My favorite breakfast place is Gravy. They really have the most amazing breakfast. It’s just really crowded.
What do they have?
Massive, huge plates of eggs and potatoes in whatever form you want them to be. You can make your own scrambles, which is usually what I do. I’ll get a scramble with avocado, broccoli and spinach or something like that. It’s my attempt to think I’m being healthy even though I’m eating a fucking mountain of eggs and potatoes (laughs). But you have all these nice, green vegetables in it and it’s really good.
I’m getting the impression that you’re a big breakfast guy.
I don’t really eat lunch because I have breakfast when it’s time for lunch. My girlfriend and I go out and have a big breakfast at noon or one o’clock. That’s our thing. I am also into taco wagons.
Do you like carnitas?
I don’t eat meat, which is really weird for a guy who is into taco wagons.
When you’re not traveling with R.E.M. is it hard to be a vegetarian and be on the road?
It’s hard even with R.E.M.
Are those guys vegetarians?
Michael used to be, but he totally reverted (laughs). They are from the South and they’re all about barbecue. But when we have our own catering they always have vegetarian options. The thing I hate about not eating meat is when you’re on tour in Europe or Asia that people want to show you what their local cuisine is and you just feel like a jerk if you’re like, “Oh, I don’t eat that.” Sometimes I’m just like, “Fuck it, whatever” and eat it.
Do you enjoy it?
Well, it depends. For awhile I wasn’t eating any fish and then R.E.M. was on tour. We were in Portugal eating in this really great restaurant and the guy was like, “Here’s our special thing.” I said to everybody, “You know what? Fuck it, I’m going to eat some fish. I know they’re going to want us to eat some fish tonight.” As soon as I said that, the chef came out and had this 60 lb. fish and he had his thumb and fingers through the eyeballs. He said, “This is our special thing for you tonight.” I was like, “Oh, okay, here we go” (laughs). It was kind of disgusting but I just went for it.
I guess Subway is a big boon.
Well, now I don’t want to eat at fast food restaurants because Subway knocks all these other places out of business. You want to have the good, local places. Even when I’m on tour I try to avoid any kind of fast food if possible. It’s hard. When the Fellows first starting touring in 1984 or 1985, three out of the four of us were vegetarian. If we drove out of Seattle, within 20 miles away one of you couldn’t get an espresso at all and the only thing you could eat between Seattle and Chicago 2,000 miles away was a grilled cheese sandwich (laughs). At every restaurant you stopped at, everything was meat and there wasn’t good coffee. It’s so different now. Touring has completely changed since when I first started to do it.
I read that Sting has a private plane and that if he’s touring in the United States, he will fly home to New York City after the show.
I know people do that. I think U2 did that. They would hub out of New York and have the plane and wherever they played they would fly back to New York after the show.
What’s up with these environmentally conscious guys doing that shit?
I know, it’s not very environmentally conscious. R.E.M. never did that. We’re always on the bus. Well, we had three or four buses. Michael, Mike and Peter each have their own buses.
Do they have an entourage on each bus?
Well, I would be on Peter’s bus or sometimes I would go on Mike’s bus or sometimes I go on Michael’s bus. I could switch off if I wanted to. Typically, I’d be on Peter’s bus. But I would ride on the other guys’ buses sometimes. Like if Peter wanted to leave right after a show and I didn’t want to, then I could go with Mike or Michael. Bill Rieflin would usually go with me, Ken Stringfellow would usually go with Mike. Michael would often have family out who would go with him. It makes sense since everybody has slightly different schedules. I know it sounds decadent, but it’s still a lot different than flying in and out after each show.
What’s the difference between all the buses?
None of them are raging, rock ‘n’ roll buses. A typical night on Peter’s bus would be: we come out after the show, maybe have a pizza and some wine and watch videos. Videos like a Captain Beefheart documentary or a bluegrass documentary or John Coltrane live in 1965 in San Francisco. That kind of stuff.
Music geek stuff.
Music geekdom. We would even watch Journey to Centre of the Earth live by Rick Wakeman until we couldn’t stop laughing (laughs). That’s a typical long night on the Peter Buck bus. Watching super weird bootleg rock videos or jazz videos. Drinking wine and maybe having a little pizza. On Mike Mills’ bus you would be more likely to listen to a mix of really great top 40 and obscure songs that he loves like power pop kind of things. You would also play guitars and sing on Mike’s bus. He almost always wants to get the guitars out and sing and stuff and then listen to cool songs. Mills loves classic top 40 stuff and weird power anthems. On Michael’s bus you would probably watch a TV series. Maybe they would be into “Lost” or something like that. In ’95 I was on the bus and I think we watched six episodes of “Friends” (laughs). Michael is more into checking stuff out that is actually going on at the time. So, that’s a little different. All really fun (laughs).
by David Harris
See Also: R.E.M.: Collapse Into Now
