The second time was the charm. By the time Erika M. Anderson and I sat down for an interview before EMA’s set at Portland’s Mississippi Studios, neither one of us was in the right frame of mind for a chat. Anderson was about to go on stage in 10 minutes and after a stressful day, a pushed back soundcheck had me waiting for 45 minutes for the singer to be ready. So, one person about to perform in her new hometown and the other extremely pissed off does not a good interview make.
Following her blistering set, featuring songs from the well-received Past Life Martyred Saints, Anderson and I downed a few beers, took some deep breaths and settled in for an interview that touched up trepanation, punk rock and Courtney Love. I found Anderson to be warm, gregarious and open. And after that first aborted interview, much more ready to talk about creating art, finding her limits and rock music. I’m pleased to present the Spectrum Culture interview with Erika M. Anderson of EMA.
After listening to your record, I realized that most female artists today have moved from the body politic and have focused on socio-economic themes with their lyrics. Examples include Erykah Badu, M.I.A., PJ Harvey and even Madonna. But your record is a throwback. It’s cathartic and emotional and seems to be more about what’s going on within you rather than what’s going on around you.
There’s a couple of things I would say. Many of the songs on the record are pretty old, like the ones that have the most of that element in them. Like the body politic kind of thing you’re talking about, like “Marked” and “Butterfly Knife.” Those songs are actually very old. They could have gone on the last record I did with Gowns but that record felt, to me, like more of a socio-political thing, even though possibly it was misinterpreted as being a drug ode. To me, the drugs on that record were a metaphor for lack of access politically, economically and geographically. I didn’t realize when I made this new record there was so much violence and body on it.
If you listen to Horses by Patti Smith, you hear about a switchblade and Johnny being stabbed with it. I read somewhere there is a David Cronenberg type of body horror to your work.
Some people have said that, which is something I didn’t really realize when I was making it. I don’t know. I’m not the sort of person who has had body issues as far as eating disorders or things like that but there’s part of me that feels uncomfortable being a six foot tall blonde babe. I feel more akin to someone like Charles Bukowski. Maybe there is this disconnect between how I feel on the inside and what is real. It’s almost like this is karmic retribution. I feel like I was some sort of slovenly, drunken asshole writer in my past life and now I’m coming back as some sort of tall lady. So I don’t know if that has anything to do with it or what. But with the women who are doing socio-political stuff, all those people you mentioned are all artists that are actually much farther along in their careers. You’re talking about PJ Harvey and she’s been putting out records for 20 years. And Madonna? She’s been putting out records for 30 or 35 years! Is that right? Am I doing my math right? What’s 1985? Twenty-five. So at least 25 years. I don’t mind being compared to these fucking awesome career women, but I can’t tell if there is a contemporary analogue.
Have you ever cut yourself?
That’s a question. No comment.
Can you identify with people who have?
Sure. Yeah.
What do you think it is? What is the identification? You’re talking about “Marked…”
Well, “Marked” is also about non-physical forms of harm, where you wish that, if there is a physical manifestation of the harm, it would be easier to explain, easier to quantify, easier to show somebody like, “This hurts because of this.” There are lots of forms of pain and abuse that aren’t as physically qualified. From what I understand about people who are cutters or self-harmers, is that it’s a way to physically manifest things that are emotional. So “Marked” is some ways similar, like I wish I had a physical record of the things that went wrong.
Like marking your time on the wall in prison?
I suppose. Maybe that would be an analogue.
But isn’t cutting about control also?
I don’t know. Have you ever cut?
I haven’t, but a girl I really loved in the past did when I was in high school and it really shocked me. Because I never knew anyone who did that.
So if we talk about what I say in this interview are we going to also put your admission in the interview?
Sure.
Okay, that makes things more comfortable. So say it again.
I never cut myself. But I had kinda a girlfriend in high school who did and I didn’t realize that people would do that to themselves until I saw her do it to herself.
I think, as far as explosive things go, there is a male form of aggression, which is like, “I’m really fucking pissed. I’m going to goddamn break this chair. I’m going to throw a TV out the window. I’m going to break shit and I’m going to externalize it.” I think women feel less comfortable externalizing shit like breaking things and so possibly it turns inward. Instead of breaking a bottle and punching a wall, maybe cutting is analogous. I’m not sure. I haven’t read about it, I don’t know that much about it, but that’s what I see. I’ve hung out with both. I’ve hung out with dudes that get really drunk and break a lot of shit and I’ve hung out with girls that get really depressed and carve their arms up.
Is purging or vomiting another manifestation of the same kind of thing? To just get that feeling out.
I’m not sure about that, to be honest. I don’t know that many people that have done that, so I haven’t had conversations with people. Like bulimia and stuff like that.
You use vomiting as a metaphor to just get out an emotion.
Actually, that’s about trepanation. Trepanation, to me, seems like an ideal. I know that sounds fucked up but when I think about what I’d like to do as an artist, I’d like to get everything that’s in the subconscious out as pure as it can be. I feel like the mouth gets in the way and the hands get in the way. I have this idea that if there is this hole in your head, it will come out in the most pure form.
What holds you back the most as an artist?
Sometimes I have fear. Sometimes I have a lack of self-confidence. With Gowns, I wondered if it was a fear of failure of a fear of success. That’s what holds a lot of people back. I used to be really terrified of failure, because it’s one sort of thing where if I try really hard and I fail, that will suck but I used to be really terrified of people knowing about me. Which is ironic because here we are talking about this kind of intense shit and I write stuff in my lyrics that is pretty revealing.
Speaking of revealing, I’ve seen some of your Tweets and you post some pretty personal stuff.
Like what?
Like, “I’m wearing my underwear inside out today because I haven’t been able to wash my drawers.”
I thought that was funny and didn’t really think of it as revealing. I didn’t think of it in a sexual way, but kind of punk rock.
No, not sexual but for someone who is afraid to show themselves or put themselves out there, it’s personal because you’re talking about something underneath the armor of your clothing.
If I’m going to make art and converse with people, I want it to be as honest as possible. If it’s just going to be neutered or calculated then fuck it. There’s not a point for me. I will go and do something else. I also still have doubts that I will be a huge pop artist.
Is that a goal?
Maybe I’ve spent too much time in the noise circuit; it’s inconceivable to me that I could be mainstream in this way. It seems hard to believe that would happen.
But is it something you want?
I don’t know. I want to have fun at this point. That is why I have all my really close friends in the band. I did weird, avant-garde stuff with Gowns for a long time and then on my own and I was really ready to quit music entirely when that stopped. Everything that’s happening now feels like a bonus round. I was like, “I already hit the bottom. I failed.” I was coming to grips with everything that crashed. I was ready to move home. Coming back right now feels like a bonus round. Which is good because it put my priorities in a really good place. I really want to have fun, I want to play with the people I want to play with, I want to do the things that sound fun to me and whatever happens, happens. I was actually more terrified of success than I was looking for it. I always tell myself, if things get too scary, I can always move back home to Minnesota and fishing. I will be a high school English teacher and have a bar band. I will be fine with that.
Your new album isn’t a fun listen, is it?
I don’t know, people keep saying that it’s super dark and super crazy, but there’s riffs on it. It’s strange. Certain people will be like, “This is way poppier than anything you’ve done in the past.” So then I’m like, “Huh, I made a pop album.” But then other people will say, “This is so noisy!” I think it’s just subjective. I don’t see it as doom and gloom as it is often portrayed.
Someone told me that Village Voice said it sounds like you’re just lying on the ground and getting high.
I told you that! That bummed me out. I’m like, “Don’t you know that my grandma reads these reviews and what are you basing this on?” If you’re not thinking about your image and you say, “I’m just going to make whatever the fuck I want,” like I did with Gowns… I want to make something that speaks realistically about drug use in the Midwest. I try not to read all the reviews because I would get a different perspective on myself than what I know is possibly real or how I feel I experience my daily reality. When you make shit, you feel like you’re in a vacuum and it feels really free. With this last record, I made exactly what I wanted to make. No one’s listening. So yeah, I’ll put out all this stuff that people will ask me about later. Like you being like, “So tell me about cutting and this and that.”
I could ask you the powder puff questions but then it would be a bullshit interview.
That’s fine. Let’s do it. We’re drunk; we’re here. Can you preface it with that? Reel me back in. What were we saying?
You were talking about making music in a vacuum.
Yeah, I’m not always good about thinking about the consequences. I have this integral belief that I’m anonymous.
It’s a fine line. If you want to market yourself, you can’t be anonymous.
I don’t think that’s the goal. The goal is to have really nice experiences in life. When I tweet about my underwear being dirty, I think it’s my friends reading and that my friends will laugh. I had an irrational fear of exposure. Before Michael Jackson died, I wanted to make a T-shirt that said, “Fame Kills,” because I saw so many examples of people being completely destroyed. Especially women like Amy Winehouse, Lindsay Lohan and all these people. It rips people apart and destroys their psyche. If I’m going to write the stuff I want to write and put out the stuff I want to put out, there’s either complete fear that paralyzing or I’m going to say, “Fuck it, it doesn’t exist.” There’s no other way to put out songs like “Marked” and “Butterfly Knife,” which I wrote a long time ago when I was still in Gowns and thought this stuff is too weird to put out. It’s too revealing. I can’t release these things. My mom just called me and she was like, “We just put on your record and your grandpa sat and listened to the whole thing.” I’m like, “Oh my god, no!” I hope there is a cohesive thread. I feel like I would like to sum up something.
Well, it seems like you’re at the outset of the journey.
Yeah, I just want to do shit where I’m having fun. Yeah, who knows? Maybe I’m naïve with it. I’m naïve, but I’m not. When Gowns imploded, I was living in Oakland and I hated it so much because I felt really self-conscious. People I didn’t know would ask me, “So, I heard you and Ezra broke up.” I’m like, “Oh? You’ve been talking about me.”
I’ve heard about that.
Yeah! Exactly! You meet somebody and try to be cool with them and it’s like, “How’s it going? I don’t know you,” and then they’d be like, “Oh, so what’s up with this?” And it’s like you know something about me and I’ve never met you!
Aren’t those part of the trappings of putting out a CD and being in a band and wanting to get your name out there? Do you think if you were a guy it would be different?
I don’t know. A lot of people ask stuff like that.
Can you be flattered that people care?
It just makes me more guarded and I like being unguarded. I like being open to stuff. I don’t really like that I would be suspicious of people I meet.
Are you suspicious of people that you meet?
Sometimes, yeah.
What sets you off?
When I moved to Portland, I was actually kind of stoked. I have my really olds friends, but no one knows me here. But the thing is, I want to make art that is an expression of how I feel, so I don’t want to feel super self-conscious. Who knows? I like these things that are made in vacuums. Would Past Life Martyred Saints be as good if I made the whole fucking thing before anyone gave a shit about it? Probably not.
Is there any way to shut it off?
I’m going to spend a month in Minnesota fishing. Catch and release.
Do you feel like more people want more stuff out of you lately?
Yeah, but it’s fun. I like finding my limits of how much I can do at a time. That’s cool and it’s also like multimedia. It’s music but it’s also making videos. I used to hate the idea of photo shoots and all that stuff. I was like, “Oh my god! Fuck no, I will never do this.” Now I’m like, “Oh, that was kind of fun.” There are all these skills I need to learn how to get good at and I’m kind of having fun with it. Like interviews. I don’t know if I’m doing well on this one but… Growing up in South Dakota, there was so much of my life where I didn’t feel challenged at all. But now I’m into finding what the limit is and unfortunately, I won’t know until I pass it.
What was it like growing up in Sioux Falls as a punker? Was it hard to get a boyfriend? Were you harassed?
It was never hard to get a boyfriend. It was hard, but it was also kind of awesome. There was no idea of art there at all. No painting, no writing, no history. Because of that, it was so free. Like, do whatever the fuck you want, whenever you want. It was great. I shaved my head right after I got out of 8th grade and rolled up to freshman year with a shaved head. But it was awesome. There was no history of art, but life was so boring there that people would live poetically. People would constantly be making these poetic gestures of throwing TVs out of windows and pissing in fridges, being super punk rock. Putting on crazy shows. But it’s completely in a vacuum. There’s no mirrors reflecting it, so you just do whatever the fuck you want. I still want to live in that way.
Do you see yourself ever making your way back there?
I wanted to before I made this record. I was like, “I’m moving back there and I don’t give a fuck.” It’s hard. Moving from the Midwest to here was such a culture shock. But I would like to move back. I’d like to move back to Minneapolis. We’ll just see. It’s very subtle. Like your whole life’s goals is something people don’t talk about. In the Midwest it’s family and a good job and having some fun. It was hard for me when I moved to LA and I heard people be like, “I would never have children. They would take away so much time from my art.” I was just completely fucking mind-blown by that.
Would you like to have children someday?
I want to have kids. I love kids! I was a substitute teacher for years. I love children and old people. I love hanging out with my grandparents. I still have all four grandparents alive. If any of them die, I will be so sad.
Let’s finish up talking about Courtney Love. I hear you are a big fan, but that being a big fan is a liability.
It’s a huge liability. Growing in the Midwest, I still think that seeing a woman on prime time TV playing electric guitar changed my life. It made me feel like, “I can do this.” She’s such a complicated figure. Yeah, it’s terrible. I didn’t tell anyone for years that I liked her. It’s hard to be an apologist for her, and I tried for awhile. I can’t deny the effect it had on me. I play guitar now kind of because of that. Does it take someone that it is that fucking ambitious? If you’re a woman and you want to affect culture on the level that she did, do you have to be that fucking ruthless? That’s maybe the answer. Maybe the only way to get to that level is to be ruthless as possible.
Do you have that in you?
I don’t think I do. And her story seems like a cautionary tale. Seeing the amount of hate that she gets, the amount of unadulterated hate, even thought it made me want to play, it made me think that I don’t want to fuck with fame.
